Sudden losses of only 2 species...

Andy Sager

Well-Known Member
#41
That looks exactly like what I saw on a couple lemon tetras and all 3 cardinals... man that sucks. The 45 or so fish I added prior to this outbreak were in fact ALL Neon Tetras. The good news is that there have been no more deaths in more than 48 hours. Today I was not able to find a single fish with this symptom and no ich spores. I plan to continue Paragaurd and ich shield for at least 10 more days. I will keep a close eye in fish and euthanize any showing symptoms. From here on out all fish will get a 30 day QT.
I would consider longer QT period for domestic fish at least. I read through the conclusion of this study for Zebra Danios with NTD and thought you might like to read it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4155925/
 

Arthur

Well-Known Member
#42
Plistophora is a very sad thing. Do not be angry.
It's the hell for the neon breeder.
You feed the swarm of neon. Semi-growing, they look very beautiful.
When the sales size is reached, you notice some with these spots.
When I started, I removed them and sold the others.
But they got stained in the shop too. You become known as a neon breeder who has spots. Nobody will take more from you.

It's a disease in the muscles. She is being tranversed by the parents via the egg.
There is no cure.
The breeder should not make tetras for several years.

I had would like to say something better. Do not take it bad.
 
#43
I would consider longer QT period for domestic fish at least. I read through the conclusion of this study for Zebra Danios with NTD and thought you might like to read it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4155925/
That's a fantastic article. Looks like some fish are infected for 7 months to 1 year... it also appears that spores typically require ingestion... makes me wonder how to QT other than stuffing 100 into a tank and treating the entire tank. I'm going to use that article for my immunology discussion.
Fortunately I have access to a lab with a full compliment of microbiological testing supplies and PCR, gel electrophoresis, and DNA sequencing equipment.
 
#44
That's a fantastic article. Looks like some fish are infected for 7 months to 1 year... it also appears that spores typically require ingestion... makes me wonder how to QT other than stuffing 100 into a tank and treating the entire tank. I'm going to use that article for my immunology discussion.
Fortunately I have access to a lab with a full compliment of microbiological testing supplies and PCR, gel electrophoresis, and DNA sequencing equipment.
Thought you might like that study. ;)
Sadly, as Arthur said, there really is no cure as yet for this condition (NTD ) beside euthanasia. The key is to catch it quickly and if suspected, isolation of the fish in question so that they cannot be cannibalized ( a typical fish reaction to a dead fish) if they die. That's the main spreader of the condition. Considering how many different species can become infected, the sooner removed the better.
As for how to QT, the quarantine section of my thread on Hospital and Quarantine tanks here ( https://praquatics.com/forums/threa...ospital-tanks-are-they-really-different.3326/ ) might help. In this case, as I explained earlier, a suspected fish would be best euthanized for the sake of the rest of the tank. OR, isolation from the rest of the tank would be the next option if you have a number of smaller tanks to isolate one or two fish at a time. At that point it becomes more a cost issue as to whether to try and save. The key to quarantine is observation. With fish that have known diseases associated with them, ( ie Neons & NTD ) a really sharp eye needs to be used to catch anything before it explodes into something bigger or more lethal to the other fish.
We would all like to be able to save every fish we have or get but sometimes, that is impractical and near impossible. It's best ( IMO) to sacrifice one or two for the sake of the many. In your case, take the suspect to the lab and know for sure what it is so you can possibly save the next fish with the same condition. (y)
 
#45
4 or 5 dead Neons this morning. 2 additional fish were euthanized. I believe you are correct that it is NTD. I cultured 2 agar plates from tissue of the 2 euthanized fish. I will let it culture over the weekend and perform an acid fast stain and gram test to make sure.
My plan from this point forward is to continue Paragaurd and medicated food and hope to get ahead of the pathogen.
 
#46
If it does prove out to be NTD, I'd suggest a speedy decision on the rest of the tank. There is no known cure for NTD so you may want to consider a chlorox bath and start over. It definitely sucks, but you can wind up spending a lot of time and money on a lost cause instead of enjoying your tank. :( Use a much longer QT period in the future as well. (y)
 
#47
I am sorry for the issues you are having. It really does stink as you were getting the schools up there to where you want them.

The information and links are all very interesting to me as I am about to add a bunch of neon tetras along with my 7 current stock to a 125g tank. I will definitely be doing a long QT for the new ones (I usually do 30-40 days anyway).
 
#48
I am sorry for the issues you are having. It really does stink as you were getting the schools up there to where you want them.

The information and links are all very interesting to me as I am about to add a bunch of neon tetras along with my 7 current stock to a 125g tank. I will definitely be doing a long QT for the new ones (I usually do 30-40 days anyway).
Unless you are getting wild Neons, I'd consider an even longer QT. Domestic lines will have a better chance of being carriers than wild ones. Wild ones will probably break down faster due to the stresses of shipping. ( Just about the only good point when it comes to NTD) (y)
 
#49
If it does prove out to be NTD, I'd suggest a speedy decision on the rest of the tank. There is no known cure for NTD so you may want to consider a chlorox bath and start over. It definitely sucks, but you can wind up spending a lot of time and money on a lost cause instead of enjoying your tank. :( Use a much longer QT period in the future as well. (y)
I can appreciate that logic. Unfortunately the plants, inverts, and other fish that seem unaffected muddy those waters for me. I've got a group of 6 synodontis lucipinnis that I've been growing out for 2 years as well as another group of Synodontis multipunctatus that I've been growing out for about as long. The black phantoms and glowlights have been totally unaffected as have the sparkling gourami's and Peacock Gudgeons. The issue is that the Neons and Cardinals were the entire purpose of this tank and Ive probably spent 1k on acquiring this (up until now) healthy group. I don't really even know what I would do with the other fish as I certainly wouldn't add lamp eye Congo's to any tank with these potential carriers...
 
#50
I can appreciate that logic. Unfortunately the plants, inverts, and other fish that seem unaffected muddy those waters for me. I've got a group of 6 synodontis lucipinnis that I've been growing out for 2 years as well as another group of Synodontis multipunctatus that I've been growing out for about as long. The black phantoms and glowlights have been totally unaffected as have the sparkling gourami's and Peacock Gudgeons. The issue is that the Neons and Cardinals were the entire purpose of this tank and Ive probably spent 1k on acquiring this (up until now) healthy group. I don't really even know what I would do with the other fish as I certainly wouldn't add lamp eye Congo's to any tank with these potential carriers...
As I said, the whole situation sucks ( I believe that's the technical term for it. ;) ) Since you should know after the weekend, decisions don't need to be made until after then. If it turns out to be something treatable, great. If it's NTD, keep in mind that the catfish ( or other fish) could have eaten some infected dead fish or A dead fish in the tank and are now carriers. Future additions could be subject to infection. If you want to keep the existing collection of fish and plants, you might want to consider the tank full and just let them grow as is. Again, all subject to the results of the tests. (y)
 
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