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Discussion in 'Sickness and Diseases' started by The Rover, Feb 7, 2018.
Thanks TM...Appreciate the kind words and yes it feels great to have all this support and encouragement (and Andy ) Jk Andy!!!!
She's looking better
As for the shrimp and snails, they don't need a filter (Zack would probably appreciate keeping it anyway) but you may want to move some gravel or a piece of decor into whatever you put them in. I'd also place saran wrap over the top to keep the shrimp in, because they do like to climb and escape things.
Zach update...Got her into an afternoon 30-minute bath...no pics because I was doing a wc per the General Cure instructions and getting the snails out and into a bowl with the cycled sponge filter and a heater that will keep it 77 degrees. Threw in a clump of java moss, a marimo moss ball, and some bolbitis so they seemed to be ok so far.
Just as I was finishing all of that the Kanaplex arrived so got her back into her clean tank and dosed the Kanaplex. Her coloring does look better and while she spent some time laying on the decor breathing heavily, she seemed to be ok for now.
Just have to hope that the meds got here in time and she responds...I think one of her eyes is less swollen so I'm pretty sure the baths are at least palliative even though they're also probably stressful. Her tank lights are off and I'll check on her in the morning.
Zach update - She's still with us! She isn't very active and when I put her in her bath she didn't do much of anything. Less energy it seems, but I did give her a 30-minute bath. Guess it could be the meds as well. Kanaplex has only been in her tank since yesterday at about 4:30-5pm. I don't think she looks worse. I think the swelling in one eye is down a bit and her color is not as pale.
Also included for your amusement, the temporary home for the snails...Put them in a bowl with the sponge filter from Zach's tank, a clump of java moss, a marimo ball and some bolbitis along with a heater. The lid is extra special! lol credit to my wife for that idea!
Pics for those interested.
Question for those who've experienced this...Will I know after the 3 doses of Kanaplex whether she is going to make it or if she makes some progress would I keep dosing the Kanaplex for another round of 3 doses?
A recovery looks like this: Swollen eyes, not swollen anymore. Scales, back to normal position. Feeding, the fish will begin feeding again and defecating, swimming, the fish will be swimming normally. Until all these things are happening, the fish is not cured. If this doesn't happen after the three doses of Kana, follow directions to repeat treatment.
So do you have any idea of what the usual Kana treatment length in Dropsy that's actually cured? And I would assume her organs will fail and she will pass if the Kana isn't having a positive effect. But I'm curious about the length of time and amount of doses it could take for her to pull through.
In the human world, I would compare it to getting a Z-pack for a sinus infection. It will begin working, but 5 days isn't enough time to treat most sinus infections. A doctor SHOULD give the patient 2 Z-packs for a sinus infection to completely cure the infection.
I'm sure there are holes in my analogy but it's the best I could come up with and if after 3 doses she is stable do I view that as a win and keep going? I'm not going to be ridiculous if she is suffering, but just trying to have some perspective on what's improvement and what's still decline?
My understanding of drospsy is because of organ decline and then failure the fish can not osmoregulate. The extended scales are due to fluid pressure. In my opinion if you don’t see that symptom resolve then kidneys will continue to decline
I also think the antibiotics either boost the immune system response or they don’t. I think you will see a change soon if you are going too
Thanks...Some of her physical symptoms have improved but some haven't so it's hard to tell. Would continuing to do two 30 minute Epsom baths per day while on the Kana be helpful or is that adding too much stress at this point with her trying to tolerate the meds. I gave her the one bath this morning, but any thoughts on a second one. I know it's reducing swelling so maybe the palliative effects make it worth it?
I would keep doing what you are until she gets better or you decide she won’t
The problem you are most likely going to experience is that the baths have masked ( and helped) the swelling so the fish looks more " normal" but it doesn't mean her organs are functioning. There's no way to know if they will restart working after being medicated until she acts and feeds normally and there is no way of giving that a time frame. Again, in your case, not properly medicating soon enough may have an effect. And again, there is no way to know if this is true or happening now. So, as per my last post, if all of those things happen, you can consider the fish "cured."
Right now, you can consider her on life support because of organ failure and with machines doing the job of keeping her alive. Once the organs start functioning again, if they do, her actions will be different than they are now. This is not a condition that has a time frame unfortunately. It has a symptom by symptom approach that needs to be addressed. As long as she's breathing, there's a chance for her to make it. Once she stops breathing, the game is over.
Unlike other diseases, you can't see the problem until it is in an advanced stage. Most people don't recognize dropsy until the fish is fully pineconed and by then survival is almost 0% You have started the process to keep that from happening, which is a plus. But unlike with external diseases, there is just no way to know if the patient is cured or will live after everything you do for it until it either does or doesn't. This is why I said from the beginning, it's up to you whether you want the challenge of attempting the cure. Most don't and just replace the fish.
What you will gain from all of this, even if the fish does not survive, is some knowledge about medicating fish, the concept of being prepared for the unexpected and the knowledge that you need to be observing your fish for abnormalities and address them quickly. All these will help you on your journey in fish keeping.
Totally understand that what I've done has most likely only been palliative, but if she is going to be cured then keeping the swelling reduced and her scales under control will have been essential IMO. Like you said, the baths have had a positive effect on her symptoms, but her organs are what really matter here and they may fail in the end. I guess what I was trying to see if there was anyone who had seen or heard of someone having to do 2, 3 or 4 courses of treatment of Kana to reach a cure or is it going to resolve itself here shortly?
And really it probably doesn't matter since we need to take this day by day...
There ya go. Every case is different as there are more than one reason why the fish's organs fail. As I said in my edited posted above, it's just a symptom by symptom curing thing and there is no way to give it a time frame.
Zach update - Still alive, but she's pretty weak at this point. She was actually a little sassy last night although her energy level was low. This morning I was able to get her up to the top of the tank with a little prodding so she still has some pop left in her. 30-minute salt bath and her symptoms are much improved. Her left eye has a lot less swelling, but she didn't do much of anything in the bath. Laid there for the 30 minutes. And she is now laying on the bottom with some heavy breathing.
Today is the second dose of Kana so we'll see if she can rebound at all. Without eating, getting salt baths and receiving a heavy duty med I would expect that she wouldn't have much energy. But, going by what @Andy Sager says, "if she's breathing, then she has a chance" she is definitely breathing, is not laying on her side and will swim up to the surface if prodded a bit. I'm very cognizant that this may be futile and I'm just making her suffer, but she keeps showing signs that she's still fighting so with today only being her second dose of Kana I think it's worth going another day at this point.
Hope she makes it through. You have done well by her-- given all the care that you have been able and sought out expert advice to fill in the gaps of your knowledge. We have all been in this position, those of us who have made fish-keeping a life-time hobby--- it is tough when our fish get sick. We are all hoping for her speedy recovery!
Thank you...She laid in the same spot for about 4 hours this morning after her bath and I was beginning to think it might be time to throw in the towel and then I came back a bit later and she was doing some swimming! So, she's still battling so there's still hope. I looked at Thursday's pics vs this morning and her bloating and swelling are way down so she just needs to respond to the Kana!
I suggest you lower the water level so she doesn't have to struggle to get to the surface for breathing.
Zach update - She's still with us! Keep seeing signs that she's improving BUT that's mixed in with a LOT of laying down on the bottom or on some leaves. She'll get a burst of energy and swim up to the top and has moved around the tank more than I thought she would to different areas to rest. I stopped the salt baths for time being. As I looked at her pics compared to Thursday her swelling and bloating are really reduced so no reason to stress her anymore getting her in and out of the baths. She's got some very red gills from the salt and meds so I decided it's best to just leave her be.
She has one more dose tomorrow. I've also ordered some Clove Oil, which will arrive tomorrow as well. I'm extremely conflicted as to whether she is sufficiently improving or needlessly suffering. Just when I'm thinking it's time to give in she rallies so it's just kind of hour by hour at this point. I would love to see her get her full course of treatment so she gets the best chance at survival but after tomorrow I think I may have to make a tough decision if she isn't showing noticeable signs of improvement.
@Andy Sager I don't have the tank filled all the way but I do have it up enough to try and reduce HOB surface agitation and frankly I'm afraid to remove any water for fear of removing any of the Kana. No real good options at this point. She gets to the surface very easily actually. She just doesn't have a lot of energy, but when it's time to move she goes and you wouldn't know she's sick. It just doesn't last very long.
If you stop the baths and she starts to bloat again, that's a sign her organs are still not working. You then need to consider if you want to continue with the meds and baths to see if longer gets the job done.
As for diluting the meds by removing water, the dosage is usually for 10 gals of water. That means that the biological activity of the med is at a proper level in 10 gallons of water. If after the med has been dissolved you remove water, you are not lowering or diluting that activity. If you add water, then you would be diluting it. What you need to do is make sure you have a known mount of water, say 5 gals, and adjust the medicine dose to 1/2 of the dose for 10 gals and you would be still at 100%
As for the HOB, Bettas don't need that to be working. You can replace that with an airstone for water circulation but anabantids, ( bettas, gouramis, etc) were designed to live in low oxygen water ( hence why they breath atmospheric air ) so in your fish's case, the less energy she needs to expend to get air, the more energy she will have to try to heal.
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